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[NCE] Hiding and Shooting in the Same Turn

Discussion in 'Rules & Mechanics' started by undertaker, Oct 10, 2017.

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Can a model hide in their movement phase, and then shoot in the same turn?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    77.8%
  2. Yes, but only if they remain hidden from a previous turn

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. undertaker

    undertaker Ganger

    A debate arose in our game this weekend regarding whether a fighter can go into hiding in their movement phase, and then elect to come out of hiding during the shooting phase of the same turn if the situation requires it.

    For some time I had assumed that if a model chose to go into hiding, they then couldn't shoot in the same turn. That is, they spent their turn being stealthy behind cover. But according to the NCE doing one then the other is entirely possible.

    We played that game according to the rules and to me it felt a really weird. Almost nobody was out of cover or within spotting initiative distance, so our entire gangs went into hiding pretty much every turn. Then models reveal themselves one-by-one as they take shots in the shooting phase, or remain in hiding if their only target had already been downed by that point.

    We are considering making a houserule to override this oddity. If a model chooses to be stealthy that turn, they give up the opportunity to shoot. Seems more realistic too, since the sequential separation of movement and shooting phases is only an in-game abstraction. It would also reduce the amount of checking the players had to do to determine if a model could hide.

    The other point to consider is what happens if a model starts the turn hiding. Can they continue to hide in their movement phase and then shoot in the shooting phase? This would allow the model to avoid being targeted by overwatchers in the movement phase, but then be able to shoot them in return. I would imagine the hiding person should get first shot in such a situation.

    How do other people play it?
     
  2. Stoof

    Stoof Gang Hero
    Yak Supporter

    We play it that you can hide/remain hidden, move up to your normal M so long as you stay in cover, then fire if you wish. Firing unhides you (un-silenced weapon assumed), so you're fair game for your opponent next turn. I believe this is the "correct" interpretation of the rule (NCE at least).

    If you are doing this the hiding is to prevent you drawing overwatch fire during your movement phase as you point out.
     
    Ben_S likes this.
  3. Ben_S

    Ben_S Hive Guilder

    Map
    I don't see hiding and then shooting as that odd, but I do think it's a bit odd that you can evade overwatch fire like this.

    Can anyone remember why NCE restricted overwatch fire to the enemy movement phase only, rather than at any point in their turn? Personally, I'd be inclined to revert that change, but perhaps I'm missing some good reason why it was made.
     
    spafe and Stoof like this.
  4. Stoof

    Stoof Gang Hero
    Yak Supporter

    Yeah, I'm not sure why overwatch became restricted. I assume it's specifically so you can't be shot when you fire from hiding, as I can't think of any other situation it would be relevant.

    The ORB overwatch rule specifically mentions using it to shoot at enemies as they peek out of hiding to fire.

    The NCE rule doesn't make that much sense in context - you can't shoot at that target that just presented itself purely because it's not moving anymore. The ORB version makes more sense where you can shoot at any point in the opponents turn that a target presents itself.

    EDIT: The more I look at and investigate the intricacies of NCE hiding the more I think that some cowardly hidey-widey snivelling beard had a bit too much influence at some point in the past. Harsh maybe, but heyho. The ORB makes a much better job of it with 1) being able to charge hiders and 2) being able to shoot at them from overwatch as they unhide to fire. The fact the general consensus on a couple of things over in the next NCE update thread is "return to ORB" seems to bear this out to some extent. Hiding in NCE as it stands (what we're referring to as the "hide anywhere" rule) seems unnecessarily and inexplicably overpowered.
     
    #4 Stoof, Oct 10, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  5. undertaker

    undertaker Ganger

    spafe likes this.
  6. Stoof

    Stoof Gang Hero
    Yak Supporter

    An awful lot of that thread is various iterations of "I can't remember why we changed it" :LOL:
     
    Malo and undertaker like this.
  7. Ben_S

    Ben_S Hive Guilder

    Map
    I think @spafe in the linked post probably had it right.

    If the sneaky Delaques all get to go into hiding and overwatch at once, and then shoot in the enemy's combat phase, they can't get shot back. Requiring them to fire any overwatch shots before the enemy shooting phase means that they can at least get shot back. And, also, it prevents someone from overwatching a close combat, waiting to shoot down the winner - which is perhaps necessary to help close combat gangs/fighters out.

    So, it seems there were some good reasons. But it does have the knock-on effect that someone who is hidden in his turn can't be overwatched when he shoots. Perhaps it would make more sense to change overwatch to shooting during the enemy's movement or just after an enemy shoots - but that could also have unforeseen implications...
     
    spafe, Stoof and undertaker like this.
  8. undertaker

    undertaker Ganger

    My Google-fu is not strong enough to find that older discussion. 'Twas before my time in these hallowed halls that the change was made.
     
    spafe likes this.
  9. undertaker

    undertaker Ganger

    From my understanding of the NCE wording
    "During the enemy’s movement phase, the model may shoot at any target at any time following the usual targeting rules. The model could shoot before the target moves, after it has moved, or actually while the target is moving."

    it seems that a model can be shot just as they are about to go into hiding. If not, then a model that knows they're about to get shot on overwatch could hide at the start of their move and stay hidden until their shooting phase, thus avoiding getting overwatched.
     
  10. Fold

    Fold Gang Hero

    Map
    It must be said that the current wording of overwatch doesn't actually preclude shooting at any point during the turn (although this is how most people seem to interpret it).

    Hence why there is a NCE proposal to tighten the wording to explicitly say it can *only* be done during the movement phase.
     
    spafe and Stoof like this.
  11. Ben_S

    Ben_S Hive Guilder

    Map
    It says you can shoot during the enemy's movement phase. That doesn't, logically, preclude the possibility of being able to shoot later in the turn - if you could shoot at any point in their turn, it would still be true that you could shoot in their movement phase.

    Mind you, the rules say that you can shoot in your shooting phase, but I don't think there's anything stating you can't shoot in your own combat phase either. If we had to explicitly state everything that you couldn't do, the rulebook would be a lot longer...
     
    Stoof likes this.
  12. Fold

    Fold Gang Hero

    Map
    It says you can shoot "during the enemy turn" and then goes on to provide more detail about doing so in the movement phase specifically.

    In contrast, the shooting rules only ever talk about doing it in the shooting phase.
     
    spafe and Stoof like this.
  13. spafe

    spafe Executive Officer in charge of Hats
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist Yak Comp 2nd Place

    Map
    yeah it was to stop one side abusing the...ambush skill if they get several.
     
    Stoof likes this.
  14. Anthony

    Anthony Community Edition Editor
    Necromunda Custodian

    Also in the official rules if you try and shoot an overwatched fighter from hiding then you're going to get pelted twice, first immediately when you come out of hiding and then in the subsequent turn, which only encourages shooting gangs to sit around more. Even so you still have the option for an overwatcher to go into hiding.
     
  15. undertaker

    undertaker Ganger

    From what people have said it seems pretty conclusive that hiding everyone that can at the start of their turn is the norm. Seems a bit odd to me, but I'll give it a go.
     
  16. Stoof

    Stoof Gang Hero
    Yak Supporter

    I wouldn't say it was the norm, It'll depend on your gang, available scatter, if you actually want to close with the enemy/objective to do something useful etc.
     
    undertaker likes this.

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