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Inquisimunda V2.0 - IG Kill Team List

Discussion in 'Inquisimunda' started by baldrick, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. spafe

    spafe Executive Officer in charge of Hats
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist Yak Comp 2nd Place

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    Don't the ehavies in the kill team represent other specialisets too? like medics? I cant honestly remember and am too lazy to check, but maybe just a note saying only 2 can carry heavy weapons or similar... if I'm just going mad then yeah, dropiing down to 2 could work, esp as everyone else is so well armed/armoured.
     
  2. Word Bearer

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    Hey Evin I really like your version of the IG Kill Team, the original really was pretty bland I agree. I took the liberty of making a version 3.1 of your product, I had some free time this afternoon so I decided to tackle this one.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/a0betbgpgqfqkad/Imperial Guard Killteam 3.1.pdf?dl=0

    Here is the basics of the changes I made, mostly its just building on the work already done by you and others here.

    1. I've added a Tempestus Scions doctrine that makes Stormtroopers "Troopers" (Gangers, 50% of the killteam needs to be them.) and gives Officers, Sergeants, and Veterans a special rule that effectively makes them Stormtroopers. This kind of killteam would be pretty small compared to other IG ones, but its very elite. I can't see any way that it could be seen as overpowered as the killteam would likely only have 5-7 models in it.
    2. There are now two kinds of Commanders you can choose from. Officers are better and a fair bit more expensive than Sergeants, its mostly a stat boost. The neat thing is that Sergeants have a "Subordinate Leader" rule which allows you to in effect take 2 commanders, although the Officer would always be "the commander" for mission purposes. This should help with command and control of a larger killteam.
    3. I've added an Orders rule that both Officers and Sergeants can issue from. There are three orders, each occurs at the start of the movement phase. One grants rapid fire, one increases run distances, and another recovers the nerve of nearby models. Someone else had this idea a while ago and I stole/iterated it.
    4. All 4 advisers have been reworked substantially. They now each have a unique ability which helps provide value to the killteam. Ministorum Priests confer hatred to close models, Commissars let you ignore one failed bottle check, Techpriests help maintain your gear, and the Sanctioned Psyker's rules are more fleshed out. There is now a very real reason to consider taking any one of them. I also added wargear options appropriate for the priests to the wargear section.
    5. I reworked all the unit entries and removed a lot of uneccesary text (i.e.: Any Non-Astartes Human.). I renamed a few units to have names which fit better with guard regiments as a whole.
    6. The cost of each item is now included in the wargear list.
    7. I've added rules for a Hot-Shot Volley Gun as well as a Hellgun Power Pack. They're intended to help flesh out stormtroopers and differentiate them from veterans.
    8. Skill Tree lists now include all units.
    9. A bunch of minor changes and I made it all look pretty.
     
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  3. Evin Wijninga

    Evin Wijninga Ganger

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    I have been realy busy with my study lately, but I do have some time again now. Great to see people went on with it! I will check all you guys posted and made the coming days.

    [Edit]

    I read the 3.1 rules, and they look realy good! I love the thought you put into it. It will have to be playtested now I think?
     
    #83 Evin Wijninga, Jul 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  4. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    Still very new to the game so forgive me if I have completely missed the obvious. I very much like the direction that was take with the v3.1 as I was all kinds of sad panda over the limited nature of the v2 IGKT listing. That said I really like playing Grenadiers and while I see that the v3.1 allows for Scions it appears to disallow the option to equip Veterans with Carapace Armor. Any resolution to this? Perhaps make Veterans a Troops Choice and allow for the purchase of Carapace by them or add a Grenadier Doctrine that slaps Carapace on all Veterans and Leadership?
     
  5. Evin Wijninga

    Evin Wijninga Ganger

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    The idea was that only Stormtroopers/Tempestus Scions can use Carapce armour like in the old codeses. Veterans were basicly better guardsmen. Tempestus is the way to play grenadiers I think.
     
  6. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    whole I see where you are going I personally disagree. Stormtroopers/Scions are while similar to Grenadiers very different in background and application.

    Grenadiers are reflected in many versions of the fluff to include many of the Novels and are pretty much a fully accepted trope of any modern 40k medium.

    While being similar to Stormtroopers, Grenadiers would lack access initially to many of the items that are considered Standard to a Scion and would also lack the intense training that the Scions are known for. That said they would also have no legitimate limiting fCtora in regards to abhumans or other standard gear.
     
  7. spafe

    spafe Executive Officer in charge of Hats
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist Yak Comp 2nd Place

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    If it's for balancing, ignore me and crack on, but in terms of background... Harkoni warhawks, a couple of Royal Volupian dragoons, and serveral other 'heavy infrantry' regiments do exist who are guardsmen (lasgun, crap training etc), but with carapace heavy armour as standard. Some of them even gain slightly more powerful lasguns (read lasguns with hotshot powerpacks rather than full hellguns). So it's not a stretch at all for them to have carapace.

    Like I said though, if its for balance reason then just ignore that! :p
     
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  8. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    As a punk new I can't speak for certain on the balance issue but if Scions are a possibility the. I don't see why Grenadiers would not be.

    It seemed to be a very popular request in the first few pages of the thread and though it isn't the same Scions and Grenadiers both are able to be made playable in the current tabletop.

    For me it just adds fluff. I have numerous stories written about a Home brew Regiment who are not Stormtroopers but rather well equipped Guardsmen and the best way to reflect them in this game would be Carapace wearing Guard/Veterans.
     
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  9. spafe

    spafe Executive Officer in charge of Hats
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist Yak Comp 2nd Place

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    Like I said, I don't know if balance issues are there, but one potential could be that by their nature, scions are expensive, so a small gang, wheras grenediers may be cheap enough to have a larger gang, while bringing such good armour to basically make them too powerful. Another similar list would be enforcers, but they are once again a low model count gang...
     
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  10. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    I guess I'm just confused about how it's a balance issue. Of course there would need to be a prerequisite Doctrine and that would cost much like the Scion Doctrine but probably much cheaper since it shouldn't allow for access to all Scion gear and just Carapace, nor should it give the Special forces training.

    I'll sit down and come up with a version I think may be applicable and you guys can shoot it full of holes to make it better.
     
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  11. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    DOCTRINE

    • Grenadier: This upgrade must be
    taken by every Officer, Sergeant and costs +10
    TG per fighter. Officer, Sergeant, and Veteran
    gang members may equip Carapace Armor
    . Veterans become Troopers
    and are a 2+ choice for this Killteam. May not
    take Recruits or Guardsmen.


    It is exactly the Same Entry as it was for Scion but...
    1. Dropped the "May Equip Stormtrooper Only Items" and limited it to Carapace Only
    2. Dropped the "Special Forces Training" entirely with no replacement
    3. Dropped the Limitation on the restricted units and opened access to everything except what the normal "Trooper" would be for this kind of unit.
    4. Dropped the cost per Model to +10 TG rather than the original "+20".... +15 may be more appropriate but with the loss of access to the entire Stormtrooper Armory and the loss of the Special Forces training without play testing it perhaps +5 would be the most appropriate given the scope of this chance and looking at other doctrines in comparison (Specifically Death World Vet, and Xenos Fighter). Anyhow that is how I ended up at +10 and of course the Point cost will be an obvious play test requirement. Any other thoughts?


     
    #91 TicToc556, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  12. tribeof1

    tribeof1 Gang Champion

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    Holy overpowered warband, Batman! I'm not sure where to even start. (Note, I've only looked at Word Bearer's rewrite of Evin's list, so not sure how much of this comes from the earlier version).

    Here are a few of the larger issues that jump out on a quick skim:

    * Officer orders: Way too good, even for an extra 50 TG. The +1D6 move is almost a guaranteed win in any scenario that requires reaching an objective or crossing the table, and Volley Fire lets you double your shots for an entire gun-line, which is already OP due to the next issue:

    * Way too many guys -- including heavies! -- starting with BS 4. This has been identified as a major issue with Eldar warbands (even with Craftworld Eldar costing 45 TG more than humans) and they're likely to be nerfed as a result. No current human warband can start with BS4 on anyone but the leader (arbites are the exception, if they add a judge) and certainly none with a BS4 heavy or specialist. At best, some warbands can start a heavy with a gunsight at 30-40 TG extra. In your draft, half the warband could easily have BS4, with the other half filled out by cheap BS 3 recruits. That's an absolutely huge advantage, for a negligible cost. Or, use the Scion option you added and have everyone with BS4. Slap 'em all in a gunline behind cover and mow down the opposition with Rapid Fire. No one but your leader should get more than +1 to any stat to start.

    * Beyond the awesome-at-any-price benefit of BS4 troops and heavies, you've undercosted several troop types. Access to special weapons (on your Vets, Gunners and Stormtroopers) is supposed to add 10 TG to base cost. You've also given your Ogryn +3 Leadership for free.

    * The Weapon & Equipment List: You're not supposed to put point values on individual warband lists, because we list set a single price that is the same for all warbands. Not to mention, you seem to have indiscriminately reduced the prices for most of the better weapons and armor (half-price carapace? Come on!). Your hot-shot volley gun is significantly better than a stormbolter (longer range, triple the chance of passing an ammo roll) for the same price and the hellgun power pack (which is better than a weapon reload, not quite as good as mastercrafted) should cost about 25 credits, not 10.

    * Getting a little generous with skill access, as well, giving access to all skills to your officer, sergeant and veterans, with gunners and stormtroopers having access to 6 of 7 categories, as well.

    So, yeah, the list needs an extended beating by a nerf-bat before it's ready for prime time. I'm guessing that a lot of the problem stems from trying to carry things over directly from 40k, where stormtroopers, etc. probably do have BS 4. That's not a big deal in 40k, but 'Munda operates on a different scale, where the best-of-the-best (ie. leaders) start with BS 4 and everyone else starts at BS 3 at best. Mess with that balance too much and a campaign will go sideways quick, as the warband with lots of starting BS 4 dominates early, establishing an XP lead that only puts them farther and farther ahead.
     
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  13. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    ........ and that post is much of the reason that I don't like communities such as these. Vitriolic attacks are no fun for anyone but what really gets me is the the intent to defend the core mechanic over defending a system put in place to reflect the fluff. Sure there needs to be some give an take one how to do that to accomplish any semblance of balance but what I just read I believe can be paraphrases into two sentences "Your shit is to cheap and we should adjust that to bring it back into balance with the game" which I believe is exactly what the author had asked people to do. but rather than make helpful suggestions you spent the better part of a page going all "neck beard rage" at him. The second paraphrase sounded like this to me "We have always done it one way and even though that one way doesn't match contemporary views we wont change or consider change"..... isn't a fan based game initiative the very place that changes like this should be had? Hell with the incorporation of the Inquisitor aspect into Necromunda would that not be the exact scenario set up to perhaps do something as wild and crazy as incorporate a D10 instead of a D6 to give a wider array of reflected abilities....? Just some thoughts.
     
  14. tribeof1

    tribeof1 Gang Champion

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    If you think that's "vitriolic" "neck beard rage" then I think you need to retune your internet sensitivity settings, friend! That was gentle.

    Now, if I came off as a bit exasperated, it's because I am. We've had this exact conversation in multiple threads (see the Inquisimunda Weapons Overhaul Thread that got derailed for one example). The entire idea of InquisiMUNDA is to adapt the Inquisitor fluff to the Necromunda core mechanic -- not the other way around. There are numerous other Inquisitor and 40k skirmish variants (Inq28, Kill Team, etc.) for people who prefer other rule sets. If you don't like the Necromunda core mechanic (and based on your post history, TicToc, you do not) then Inquisimunda is probably not for you. Inquisimunda is meant to be a minimal adaptation of the Necromunda rules, essentially layering on some new and more varied warbands to the established core. It's not about rebalancing the core mechanic, or introducing unbalancing changes for the sake of someone's personal view of the current 40k fluff.

    Now, for those who are interested in playing 'Munda, it is a long-established fact that too much BS 4 on a starting gang/warband causes problems. I noted that. Drastic boosts to speed and firing rate also create issues that are long-standing within the Necromunda online community. Undercosting all your favorite gear, or the gear that all your favorite troops have in the 40k army book, is another common problem that we've seen in almost every thread in this forum. I'm tired of productive threads being derailed by wishlist-y stuff like this. So I will be direct: The warband list as proposed is grossly overpowered. It is unbalancing. It does not work with the core mechanics, which are -- as the forum name ought to make clear -- based on Necromunda.
     
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  15. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    So it has always been and so it shall always be
     
  16. spafe

    spafe Executive Officer in charge of Hats
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist Yak Comp 2nd Place

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    @TicToc556 , You've said twice earlier that you don't know about the balance issues, and have then made suggestions (logically!), to add another option based on the list above that you have read. That's all fine.

    However when @tribeof1 has then later had time to read the opening list and stated that lots of that has issues, is overpowered (I'll apologies in advance, I've still not had time to read it myself yet), he then explains the key offenders. That is fairly constructive. That's the exact purpose of this project, to come up with weird and fun new stuff, then make it fit into the Munda setting. So the idea of those orders that I've seen mentioned... great idea!, I would have not thought of them, having been too long into the munda mindset. However the power level and knock on... that breaks the game. Saying that, it's constructive, not 'Vitriolic attacks' at wordbearer.

    The incorporation of that rule isn't being dismissed out of hand, it's merely how powerful that rule is that will be debated, and likely watered down, sure, because that's what will let it still function in a system that has this power level.

    The only thing that this statement has any place on is that I-Munda shall remain a d6 system. Converting it to any other system of dice is well beyond the scope of this project, the aim of the project (to make a wider variety of stuff to use with necromunda), and far more work than I think any of the folk working on I-munda care to put in.

    I hope that explains the position that @tribeof1 is coming from, and doesn't come across too personal, it's not honestly trying to.
     
    #96 spafe, Jul 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  17. Blood Donor

    Blood Donor Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian Yak Philanthropist

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    If I may offer any requests beyond keeping banter to the friendly sort, it would be that in reading over the last two pages of posts, there seems to be several references to or continuations of discussions occurring elsewhere. I haven't really checked out any other =][='munda threads yet but can reassure you all that the disorienting nature of this matches dangerously with some heated dialogue to make for a thread that does not promote new users to jump into the conversation. Be the well behaved gentlemen your mothers think you are.
     
  18. TicToc556

    TicToc556 Juve

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    While I recognize that I am part of the problem I feel that the best solution would be simply leaving this community as the things I look for seem to ruffle feathers along with the way in which I present them. Take care gents.
     
  19. bubbleunder99

    bubbleunder99 Ganger

    I agree with the technical point being made here about ballistic skill.

    Theoretically BS4 hits on a 3+ (or, is a 4-in-6 chance of hitting, better than 50/50). That's a good shot to start with. In actual games as they play out, there will probably be also some sort of targeter or sight being added on top of that bringing a bonus, and almost certainly (because of terrain + the size of table you might have access to) your guys will tend not to start firing anyway until they're in short range which, with a lot of weapons, brings a further bonus as well. Before you know it you've got guys that actually just hit on 2+ most of the time.

    That then feeds into xp (more hits raises chances of wounding and getting that +5xp) so the gang starts racing ahead more due to what they started with than how they played.

    I still like the idea of bringing across some of the IG command structure and orders though, just in a way that avoids any more than one or two models starting with BS4.

    I will give the proposed list a proper read-through when I've got time, but perhaps the answer would lie in some kind of LD or anti-pinning bonus IG get for being within some distance of their officer?
     
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  20. bubbleunder99

    bubbleunder99 Ganger

    Also, @TicToc556 - please don't feel like you have to leave. You haven't done anything so awful as to merit that as far as I can see!
     
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